3-year struggle with clones... Im out of ideas now

[HappyGrower]

Hey Guys,

I've been growing for roughly 3 years now - I have seen every youtube video out there on every single aspect of growing, and in general I'm doing ok with my my outdoor grows (when in season of course) and also approaching my first indoor harvest in a week max - could be earlier. More on why its my first successful harvest indoors later as it might be relevant. Which brings me to my cloning. omg...

I have tried hydroponics, aeroponics, drosky method (sp?), rockwool, jiffys, bought seed mixes, made my own mixes, kept rh higher for longer and also tried shorter. sprayed them twice daily and later once - alternating amounts to test all possible combos. Tried tapwater, bottled water, ph'ed and even not ph'ed. With various rooting hormones and gels and also without any hormones. Tried adding very low levels of feed to the spray water, kelp liquid...

What I am trying to get across is I have tried everything I can think of and the results are pretty much constant.

Days 1 to 10: Cuttings still looks healthy and the optimism is still there... And then from day 11 or sometimes a day or 2 later (never later than 14 days) they start dying. One first and the rest follows quick. I try to remove them too if they look like dying incase its something "spreading", that dont help either. At this point I also have to note that I disinfect everything when I make the cuttings, using scalpel (new), getting them in water fast and everything I can think of to keep them clean.

They way they die is important. You see a browning of the leaves (not drying, browning) and then very quick the whole stem is brown and it basically just collapses. The stems are "rotting" (for the lack of a better word) in this final "death stage" of my babies. The parts of the stem still in the medium is usually not gone - as if the rot stopped at the base.

The ONLY time I had different outcomes was using a self-built hydroponic/aeroponic cloner. This was right at the start, but I was not happy since my success rate as still around 50% and roots ALAYS took longer than 3 weeks to start showing. That is way too long and I believed when a clone got stunned you will not get the best possible version of that plant in the end, so I tried the rest. 

Since where i stay (Kuils River, Cape Town) is too hot for clones outside in summer and at times too cold in winter, i always do my clones indoors. Its worth nothing the hydroponic cloner was outside on a "stoep" covered from the sun. I stay in a rather old house - before we moved in the roof was fixed since a large area inside got rained in for a long period while the house was empty (about 3 years apparently). That makes me worry that maybe I have some sort of fungul or bacterial or something inside this house - lol - or maybe it's really driving me crazy now and Im looking for the problem anywhere. Whatever it is it either takes 10-14 days to "do its thing" or the clones are only infected after 10-14 days. I dunno. 

About the indoor grow - 2 previous attempts failed miserably due to REALLY BAD powdery mildew. Just opened the tent one morning and it looked like it snowed inside. Since then I added better air circulation (literally 20x better) as well as do preventative spraying with organic fungicides and that fixed my powdery mildew problem (which I had outdoors too btw, just not so bad as inside).

I hope I covered everything so you guys have the whole picture - below are some photos of my latest and current failure. This is day 17. No roots showing either (never do with me).

Note I have not removed "the dead" especially for the photos. They got removed right after.

Edited December 24, 2021 by HappyGrower
Added info on photos

[Batista]

Are you using a dome to keep covered?
How are you maintaining the perfect moisture levels in those jiffys?

I use a bucket with an airstone, holes in the lid, with neoprene collars. I mist once a day with 3g/l MKP spray, and use no dome or covering under an 18/6 Low light schedule. It takes longer yes but it's its a system that works for me.

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[HappyGrower]

51 minutes ago, Batista said:

Are you using a dome to keep covered?
How are you maintaining the perfect moisture levels in those jiffys?

I use a bucket with an airstone, holes in the lid, with neoprene collars. I mist once a day with 3g/l MKP spray, and use no dome or covering under an 18/6 Low light schedule. It takes longer yes but it's its a system that works for me.

Sent from my SM-A715F using Tapatalk
 

yes i am using a dome. 

i have tried various options with the mediums, certain times i sprayed them every time i sprayed the leaves and dome, other times once a day, this time i soaked them in water with a little kelp added and after that only sprayed leaves. they are still pretty moist

Edited December 24, 2021 by HappyGrower

[Batista]

What is the mom plant growing in medium wise? Are you only watering with plain water?

I would swop out the jiffys for rinsed and buffed coco. Mix up a batch of 0.4 ec nutrient solution and use some cloning gel on those clones too if you are not already doing so.

The jiffys hold too much moisture. You can also add 10% perlite to your coco, this ensures it won't over saturate.

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[HappyGrower]

29 minutes ago, Batista said:

What is the mom plant growing in medium wise? Are you only watering with plain water?

I would swop out the jiffys for rinsed and buffed coco. Mix up a batch of 0.4 ec nutrient solution and use some cloning gel on those clones too if you are not already doing so.

The jiffys hold too much moisture. You can also add 10% perlite to your coco, this ensures it won't over saturate.

Sent from my SM-A715F using Tapatalk
 

thx, but as per my original post, i have tried every possible combo of moisture, mediums, nutrients and rooting hormones with the same result each time.

everywhere ppl are rooting their cuttings by at the max 7 days. If I can do that my clones will be rooted and wont be there to rot by day 10-14 anymore. and since i NEVER had a root on any cutting in less than 3-4 weeks, I am thinking that might be the main problem. if they get roots sooner the rot might not happen.

[Batista]

thx, but as per my original post, i have tried every possible combo of moisture, mediums, nutrients and rooting hormones with the same result each time.

everywhere ppl are rooting their cuttings by at the max 7 days. If I can do that my clones will be rooted and wont be there to rot by day 10-14 anymore. and since i NEVER had a root on any cutting in less than 3-4 weeks, I am thinking that might be the main problem. if they get roots sooner the rot might not happen.

How many days are you keeping the dome on for?

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[HappyGrower]

2 minutes ago, Batista said:

How many days are you keeping the dome on for?

Sent from my SM-A715F using Tapatalk
 

I have tried various combos, but as a rule as far as I know the dome can come off once roots formed. Of course I'm also "venting" the dome twice a day by taking it off for a few mins as well as opening up the holes in the dome gradually.

 

In other words the rotting occurs mostly when the dome is still on since there are no roots yet. 

Edited December 24, 2021 by HappyGrower

[Khakibos]

If you don't mind me asking what plants are you taking cuttings from ? is it an outdoor plant ?

 

 

[HappyGrower]

2 minutes ago, Khakibos said:

If you don't mind me asking what plants are you taking cuttings from ? is it an outdoor plant ?

 

 

I should've mentioned, but its been 3 years as I said, it's been many many different mothers from both outdoors and indoors and various strains. The fact that the outcome is exactly the same every time is both telling me it has to be something obvious and its also starting to make me feel stupid.

[Khakibos]

Interesting, it looks like a fungal issue to me.

I guess since its been 3 years you've probably tried, but sterilize the shit out of everything including yourself (before handling the dome and clones) and the tent or area you plan on putting them ?

Edited December 24, 2021 by Khakibos

[Weskush]

Clones need high humidity until roots are established then needs to gradually be hardened off before transplanting outdoors. Rooting hormone powder before sticking into cubes speeds up the process drastically. No nutes needed. Only water.

[Dookie69]

Have you tried / had success with germinating seeds vs clones?

[HappyGrower]

3 hours ago, Dookie69 said:

Have you tried / had success with germinating seeds vs clones?

THAT is a good question! If it's an environmental issue why are my seedlings and plants always healthy?! 

On the subject of seeds, I planted a batch of 30 Blue Dream seeds that I have chosen according to some youtube videos stating you can get the plant's sex from the way the seed look. Obviously I had to try - and as they say the proof of the pudding.... all 30 turned out female! Makes me wonder...

Back to topic - yes, my seeds are 99% successful I would say! (Using same dome too actually)

[Jimmy-z]

Have you tried keeping your vents open? I've had similar issues around the 10 day mark, but usually by then, mine already had roots, so were able to go outside.

When I make clones now I have the dome vents half closed for the first 5 days, then fully open after that. I now have far less mold issues and my success rate is over 95%. They also dont need as much hardening off before going outside.

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[CreX]

Where on the plant are you taking cuts from? 

In general, stems that are still soft and green are very hard to Clone, much harder than the woodier less fragile stems which in my experience is pretty much a sure thing. 

Sounds like you need to disinfect your cutting trays properly... Buy new ones if you can afford it, get some hydrogen peroxide and disinfect the Clone Dome and all your tools.. I have found that letting the stems sit in a 3% h202 solution for a few min while you are taking all the cuttings helps dramatically with that rot you speak of. 

Avoid spraying any nutrients on the leaves or into the tray, keep the rooter plug, rockwool, jiffies, moist at all times and don't let them dry out.

I have had the best success with an Rh of 90%... 100% seems to encourage mold spores to germinate and funky shit happens. 

Make sure you are taking cuts near a node and not in the middle of the stem, through a node is also good. 

Try not touch the cuttings again once they are in the Dome, place them and leave them be, just make sure there is moisture in the tray. 

I have had success with no rooting hormone, and also success with rooting hormone... The gell worked well, but so do powders.... But so does nothing haha.. 

Keep the cutting size consistent at whatever you decide, and make sure they get a low intensity light... Cuttings outside is crazy in any weather as they will get dry very fast or transpire like mad and dry up if the sun hits them for too long. 

The less you open the Dome, the less contaminants can get in, and if you disinfect properly when you are putting the cuts in the tent, then you should have a good success rate... And if cuts are failing to such a large degree, maybe try taking even more cuts!! Double to triple what you need, so that even in a disaster you should still get enough cuts out

[SkunkPharm]

When I take cuts I give my plants lots of water in the morning. Then take cuts in the afternoon. I only use coco plugs. I have mostly a 95% success rate. The clones I got from you are doing well and I planted they outside. 

[Bos]

@HappyGrower

Sounds like there is a foreign pathogen at play here. Or those jiffys are too wet. Do you squeeze the excess water out?

Clones are sensitive and the cuts are basically open wounds, ready for any outside fungus or bacteria to enter the new host. Tobacco mosaic/Fusarium can be introduced and spread real easily when cutting clones. You basically spread it between your cuttings unknowingly. Try disinfecting your blade between cuts.

I Prefer buffered coco in solo cups, excess moisture squeezed out before packing solo's.

Disinfect everything with peroxide or bleach even hands and gloves.

Take cuttings in the morning or afternoon, trim excess leaves and growth with a clean blade, b4 cutting stem.

Cut clones go into tap water asap(less than 5sec), let them park in cool shady spot indoors for 24hrs in water. Stems get 'cleanly' cut again at a 45deg angle and scored along bottom 2cm of stem to allow dynaroot quick contact with cambium and into the solo's with coco.

The 24hr waiting period also allows any cuts/damage on the new clone to harden off/seal/scab over before going into the dome, as the warm, humid dome is technically an incubator for nasties. Never used to wait, but now the rooting rate has improved.

Only mist from underneath in dome with tapwater, leave closed for 3 days. Run my 48w CW smd strip lights at 14/10 or 16/8 depending time of year. 

Usually have good roots 7 to 10 days in, start hardening off outdoors from 14 days, 95-100% rate so far.

16 clones on day 3.

8 from 8 hardening off outdoors.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Bos

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

Hey bud hope you are well!

Rotting cuttings means you're really only dealing with one of two things, if not both. Disease or too much humidity, and the two are mutual to a certain extent so maybe one is causing the other. a Cutting will not rot because it was too dry and whatever pathogen caused the rot also wouldn't take host if there was a lack of moisture. 

You'll do yourself wonders by cleaning everything properly and reducing your humidity. a bunch. and then keeping it like that. 

As soon as you see a sign of rot, remove whatever has the rot on it or it will spread. in theory if your conditions are right no rot should appear at all.

Have you heard of aeroponic cloning? The reason I bring this up is because we take fresh oxygen for granted when it comes to root forming. we tend to think that it's all about humidity when fresh oxygen is basically just as important. 

you most probably breeding diseases with your conditions. 

another noteworthy thing is, where is this humidity dome standing? just for clarity, let's look at two extreme opposite sides of the spectrum, shall we? If you had cuttings standing in a dusty, danky, dark basement compared to cuttings standing in a labratory setup where everything is sterile and well lit and ventilated with enough fresh oxygen, which of these two will have higher probability of rotting? obviously the ones in the basement. now I am not comparing your situation to a dusty dank dark basement, but what I am trying to explain is that sometimes it can be the surrounding environment causing the issue. always good measure to make sure the room you're working in is on the clean side to minimize the prevalence of any possible pathogens. 

✌

[Dr. Green]

I recommend that you try Eazyplug-plugs they more expensive but work great 

[Prom]

So far all good advise... I also add: Never ever put the clone box in direct sun light for longer. Will become to hot inside and cook your clones... and I really mean cook ^^

 

I work with Jiffies.. and mine stand in water during cloning procedure around 26 degrees all the time. The greener the stem, the longer it takes.