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Beginning of a deficiency?


Dookie69
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What else you feed beside each time calmag?... if you use the cheap nitrogen based version.. is simple, you dont have the start of a deficiency.. you are middle of nitrogen toxitity. If you feed calcium each time... plants need so little of it, you can exclude that right away. Nitrogen looks way more to be your culpit here 🤔 but need the full list of what you feed to get a better picture.

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Hi Prom, I use TA tri part, Soft water version. Freedom Farms F1. Autopot with air dome. 24/0 light in 1,5m x 1,5m tent. 720w Full spectrum Plus far red. CO2 in sealed room. This is one of 8 plants, the others are ok. This plant only has a few leaves showing this. The affected leaves are in the upper half of the plant.
Current NER is for “Growing” and I’ve just today switched to “Pre-flower”.
I have found in the past I add 1g CalMag / 10l (which is a maintenance amount) to every nutrient mix.
So I might typically mix 40l starting with Si, then it stands for an hour, then CalMag then TA then either Biodyne 401 or H2O2.

My EC is always around 1.2 to 1.6. PH ranges between 5.7 and 6.0. My tap water has very low EC, like 1.0.

I have heard that powerful LED lights can cause Cal deficiency when coupled with Coco. Not sure of the bro science behind this or the chain of events bringing this about.

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Sorry, late response, was out of the house. 

Uhhh Coco.. I have zero experience with Coco related issues. Never had light stress with LEDs.. i usually only add calmag if I see a issue, rest the soil buffers.

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On 11/14/2021 at 6:16 PM, Dookie69 said:

Hi Prom, I use TA tri part, Soft water version. Freedom Farms F1. Autopot with air dome. 24/0 light in 1,5m x 1,5m tent. 720w Full spectrum Plus far red. CO2 in sealed room. This is one of 8 plants, the others are ok. This plant only has a few leaves showing this. The affected leaves are in the upper half of the plant.
Current NER is for “Growing” and I’ve just today switched to “Pre-flower”.
I have found in the past I add 1g CalMag / 10l (which is a maintenance amount) to every nutrient mix.
So I might typically mix 40l starting with Si, then it stands for an hour, then CalMag then TA then either Biodyne 401 or H2O2.

My EC is always around 1.2 to 1.6. PH ranges between 5.7 and 6.0. My tap water has very low EC, like 1.0.

I have heard that powerful LED lights can cause Cal deficiency when coupled with Coco. Not sure of the bro science behind this or the chain of events bringing this about.

if your tap water is 1.0 then you need to consider buying lower EC water or moving to RO water

my EC out the tap is 0.1

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Sorry. My mistake, my tap water is also 0.1.
So in the interim I added a “deficiency” amount of CalMag (3g per 10l) to the next feed and then reverted back to 1g/10l for the next two feeds (my feeds are 40l at a time in a res which feeds 8 plants via auto pots).
I also gave a weak foliar feed with Epsom salts.
On average they are collectively sucking up 40l in 2 or 3 days. I’ve also switched to 20/4 now that they are in “pre-flower” and increased my EC to 1,6 consistently. Running GHE / TA at 80%, the balance coming from CalMag or Epsom salts etc. Last night I trimmed off around 10 leaves which were affected.
I’ll see how it goes over the next 2 days and if it continues on this plant I’ll give it a good old flush and give her a fresh start.

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Side note: drawback with Auto pots is that one res feeds all plants. It makes sorting out individual plants a bit of a toil. If you have a few different types in the grow then again, toughies if one flowers early or whatever. And it’s not practical to have a res for each pot.

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On 11/14/2021 at 12:12 PM, Dookie69 said:

Any takers to offer an observation? I think it’s a Calcium deficiency, in spite of adding CalMag to each feed…cd33b7ec6200fa1efbbed7ac9396c47e.jpg

Looks like calcium, even though you adding it you could be locking it out, I'd suggest raising your ph to 6.1-6.2.

Edited by greenkush
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Happy to announce that my plant has recovered but I do t know which of the following helped: dropped light to 20/4; gave a “deficiency dose” via autopots at 3g per 10litres, upped my EC on average by 0,5.
I suspect it was me starving the plant during a stretch period from Veg to PreFlower.

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12 hours ago, Dookie69 said:

Happy to announce that my plant has recovered but I do t know which of the following helped: dropped light to 20/4; gave a “deficiency dose” via autopots at 3g per 10litres, upped my EC on average by 0,5.
I suspect it was me starving the plant during a stretch period from Veg to PreFlower.

I agree, have a super skunk showing the same leaf coloring and is starvation. They run on 500 micromole PAR, so not light stress for sure.

It still bugs me that you gave each day calmag and ran into issues. Is this a thing with Coco?? You have to feed that much? If i would swap to coco, still using my biobizz fertilizers, what would change on the feeding, what is a must to add for coco? Curious what the coco dudes recommend... not that i plan to swap 😂

Edited by Prom
typo
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31 minutes ago, Prom said:

I agree, have a super skunk showing the same leaf coloring and is starvation. They run on 500 micromole PAR, so not light stress for sure.

It still bugs me that you gave each day calmag and ran into issues. Is this a thing with Coco?? You have to feed that much? If i would swap to coco, still using my biobizz fertilizers, what would chance on the feeding, what is a must to add for coco? Curious what the coco dudes recommend... not that i plan to swap 😂

you can most definitely go coco and biobizz... you would need to be adding microbes and fungi tho or else you may not get the results you are looking for... i think biobizz still requires some kind of biological assistance?

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3 minutes ago, CreX said:

you can most definitely go coco and biobizz... you would need to be adding microbes and fungi tho or else you may not get the results you are looking for... i think biobizz still requires some kind of biological assistance?

I think the activera product is their addon for coco. But that has nothing to do with calmag.

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9 minutes ago, Prom said:

I think the activera product is their addon for coco. But that has nothing to do with calmag.

unbuffered coco leaches calcium big time... but nothing 2 weeks of adding calmag every feed wont fix, the coco WILL get full of calcium.

i use the Haifa range of nutes and i add a bit of Ca EDTA and a bit of epsom salts per feed - as well as the Haifa Duo which is Calcium and potassium. so double Ca

but its not double, its just half and half really.

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3 hours ago, CreX said:

unbuffered coco leaches calcium big time... but nothing 2 weeks of adding calmag every feed wont fix, the coco WILL get full of calcium.

i use the Haifa range of nutes and i add a bit of Ca EDTA and a bit of epsom salts per feed - as well as the Haifa Duo which is Calcium and potassium. so double Ca

but its not double, its just half and half really.

The Calcium EDTA, being chelated, won't be leeched by the coco I believe so is available to the plants while the calmag helps buffer the coco slowly.

 

If the coco is properly pre-buffered then calcium shouldn't be as much of an issue and one could continue with normal feeding schedule. Once my coco is buffered, following GHE tri-part chart works well... That being said GHE is also calcium EDTA mainly I believe, I think it is a mix and not just calcium EDTA.

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I don’t work in “feeds” since from around 2 weeks the Autopot reservoir is turned on and becomes responsible for making the nutes available to the plants, and the plants in theory regulate their nute use individually. So if one plant is very thirsty, it will consume feed from the tray quicker than another plant, and this tray’s valve will cycle more frequently than the less thirsty plant.
Of course if there is insufficient EC for the plant, it will draw nutrients faster in order to get what it needs. A bit like getting drunk on a 2% beer - you need a whole six pack to get the same effect as two Black Labels.

Regarding CalMag. I use 1g of granular CalMag (bought from GrowGuru if I recall) per 10 litres of res water. I mix in 20 litre containers at a time, so just 2 grams per bucket, dissolved before the GHE goes in.
Now my GHE is the “soft water” version which actually has extra Calcium anyway, but I find just adding a maintenance (1g/10l) amount keeps things happy.

I’m just getting confident now with figuring out which stage the plants are at, because with GHE at least, you need to change the NER (Nutrient Element Ratio) between stages. When does seedling stop and veg begin? And veg to pre-flower? And pre flower to flower? What signs do you look for? Do you introduce the new NER when the first plant shows, or the last? This is the “green thumb” knowledge you gain through experience alone, no amount of study and YouTube can teach this.

Added to this is the complex combinations of each grow which make them unique eco systems. For example the main variables for indoor growing seem to be:
1. Photo vs Auto
2. Hydro vs amended soil vs living soil vs Coco hybrid
3. Hand Feed vs Wick feed vs drip feed vs DWC
4. CO2 supplementation vs not
5. Light cycle variances
6. Variances in supplements and amendments (brands and application)
7. Different municipal water quality
8. Salts vs Dry vs Organic nutes
9. Outside conditions and their influence on the grow space (Heat, light, humidity, stealth)
10. Tent / Room
11. Following VPD or not?

In other words there are probably very few grows which have the same or even a similar bundle of executions as mine (Coco, Autopot, Auto’s, 20/4, GHE nutes, sealed room CO2, low EC tap water, grow room.)

So each person’s grow will be unique and when it comes to the fine details there will be considerable variances in opinion and experience, and this is the stuff you need to go through to learn the actual plant itself, to tune into the plant.

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unbuffered coco leaches calcium big time... but nothing 2 weeks of adding calmag every feed wont fix, the coco WILL get full of calcium.
i use the Haifa range of nutes and i add a bit of Ca EDTA and a bit of epsom salts per feed - as well as the Haifa Duo which is Calcium and potassium. so double Ca
but its not double, its just half and half really.

CreX how do you feed Epsom Salts, how much and how frequently?
Mostly it seems to be used as a foliar feed during veg, not much info out there on how to apply it in a reservoir.
I also couldn’t find out when to add it into the mix, before or after the GHE nutes?, before or after pH’ing?
Typically if I want to add CalMag, Silica, and say H2O2, I run as follows:

1. Silica 8ml per 20l bucket;
2. Mix and stand for 1hr
3. Calamag low dose 2g granular/20l
4. Micro (all GHE at 70-80% if I use CalMag and Silica)
5. Gro
6. Bloom
7. Ph down (over 2ml when using Silica!) to achieve pH btwn 5.7 and 6.0
8. Dilute H2O2 3% at 1ml/l or Biodyne 401

So if I want to feed Epsom Salts instead of say Si and CalMag (as I’m led to believe in Flower the plants no longer require extra Calcium) where in the mix and at what quantities?

I’m using food grade Epsom salts in fine granular form.

Thanks
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3 hours ago, Dookie69 said:


CreX how do you feed Epsom Salts, how much and how frequently?
Mostly it seems to be used as a foliar feed during veg, not much info out there on how to apply it in a reservoir.
I also couldn’t find out when to add it into the mix, before or after the GHE nutes?, before or after pH’ing?
Typically if I want to add CalMag, Silica, and say H2O2, I run as follows:

1. Silica 8ml per 20l bucket;
2. Mix and stand for 1hr
3. Calamag low dose 2g granular/20l
4. Micro (all GHE at 70-80% if I use CalMag and Silica)
5. Gro
6. Bloom
7. Ph down (over 2ml when using Silica!) to achieve pH btwn 5.7 and 6.0
8. Dilute H2O2 3% at 1ml/l or Biodyne 401

So if I want to feed Epsom Salts instead of say Si and CalMag (as I’m led to believe in Flower the plants no longer require extra Calcium) where in the mix and at what quantities?

I’m using food grade Epsom salts in fine granular form.

Thanks

First! where did you hear that plants dont need calcuim in flower? its vital that they get their calcuim in flower mate!!

my feed program is the same as yours mostly though.

1. Silica 8ml per 40L bucket;
2. Mix and stand for 60 seconds
3. Ca EDTA - 3g per 40L
4. Epsom Salts - 3g per 40L
5. Spliff 1 if veg or spliff 2&3 for flower - 20g per 40L
6. Duo - 5g
7. Ph down - 2ml per 40L

 

so i have no issue adding epsom in that value, its about a flat teaspoon ..maybe a bit raised.

you can go the @iGrowDagga route and foliar epsom every day which also seems to work quite well.

 

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First! where did you hear that plants dont need calcuim in flower? its vital that they get their calcuim in flower mate!!
my feed program is the same as yours mostly though.
1. Silica 8ml per 40L bucket;
2. Mix and stand for 60 seconds
3. Ca EDTA - 3g per 40L
4. Epsom Salts - 3g per 40L
5. Spliff 1 if veg or spliff 2&3 for flower - 20g per 40L
6. Duo - 5g
7. Ph down - 2ml per 40L
 
so i have no issue adding epsom in that value, its about a flat teaspoon ..maybe a bit raised.
you can go the @iGrowDagga route and foliar epsom every day which also seems to work quite well.
 

CreX what alchemy is this?
I’m looking up Ca EDTA and this is what I get, looks like it’s for human consumption?
3b5a5d36824836129f237bf0073757d7.jpg

Is this the right stuff?
Then what’s Spliff 1 and Spliff 2?
And Duo?

Thanks CreX.
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28 minutes ago, Dookie69 said:


CreX what alchemy is this? emoji6.png
I’m looking up Ca EDTA and this is what I get, looks like it’s for human consumption?
3b5a5d36824836129f237bf0073757d7.jpg

Is this the right stuff?
Then what’s Spliff 1 and Spliff 2?
And Duo?

Thanks CreX.

LOL might be similar - or even identical , but heres the right stuff

https://hydroponic.co.za/hydroponics/green-house-powder-feeding-calcium/

and the Spliff 1-3 and Duo are the nutrient line i am using from Haifa, its not a product line they advertise, so you can call in and ask if you are keen haha - but i would stick with your GHE, its much easier to use

and charge your phone oke! its about to vrek! 😛

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LOL might be similar - or even identical , but heres the right stuff
https://hydroponic.co.za/hydroponics/green-house-powder-feeding-calcium/
and the Spliff 1-3 and Duo are the nutrient line i am using from Haifa, its not a product line they advertise, so you can call in and ask if you are keen haha - but i would stick with your GHE, its much easier to use
and charge your phone oke! its about to vrek!

My phone lives on a prayer.

Thanks for the info. Interesting.

Ps I think GHE works on the average tap water EC to be around 0.3 to 0.4. So some of the minerals needed are already there thanks to the municipal water.
Now mine is 0,1 so even if I run 100% nutes I still don’t get close to their recommended EC per growth phase.
Thus I must be constantly under feeding to the tune of 0,2 to 0,3 EC, which I ought to make up with other suppliments, like CalMag right?
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Actually the soft water Micro has more Calcium, to make up for the lack of it in the tap water. If I run just 100% nutes (flower) my EC is only around 1,4. With CalMag at a deficiency feed it comes to 1,7 or 1,8.
There is the 0,3 which GHE assumes is in the average tap water (especially in places like London where the water is very hard).

So I’m thinking I have to up the base somehow, ie with CalMag / Si or whatever.

Remember I’m running CO2 so I’m theory the plants should take higher levels of nutes. (But how much remains a mystery)

Finally I have 8 plants on an Autopot system and they are currently going thru 40l per day! (Remember it’s not to waste!)

I’ve been keeping the VPD ok, struggling with humidity a bit, but still they are sucking like crazy. This might indicate a weak feed problem, that they have to transpire so much to get their required nutes?

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