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Hermies


Trailblazer420
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Hey everyone, I have a strain that I've been working on for about 5 years now, but hermies almost every time. Anyone know if this can be stabilized via additional crossing or do I need to start over?

 

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Have a chat to Totemic, he makes his own beans and is highly clued up on these things. Not sure how to tag him from Tapatalk

 

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  • 5 weeks later...
  • 4 weeks later...

The best way I can explain the hermie phenomonon in cannabis.

All cannabis plants can "hermie" as they fall into the category of dioecious plants. This simply means that male and female flowers are usually on two different plants. What's interesting to note with almost all plants in this category is their ability to also produce the opposing flowers to ensure the survival of the species. At the very core of it, that is what all living organisms are hardwired for. 

So this really is less of a trait and more genetic hardwiring, a common foundation for the species.

The trigger is stress and this is where the traits come in. The trait is finding the genetic expression that can tollerate the highest amount of stress and not hermie. Some genetic expressions have a low stress threshhold and hermie just by looking at them wrong, while others can withstand massive fussing. 

Also it is interesting that "hermie" is actually a wrong term but so widely used that it is accepted. All your "perfect" flowers are true hermie flowers and defined as having both male and female reproductive parts on a single flowers structure. Cannabis keeps its flower structures distinctly seperate.

So back to the point... stresses can be so subtle that you as a person may never know what the stress was. Regardless, once you have identified a plant "hermies" then you can assume its a stress so yes that genetic expression may not like your indoor environment and need outdoors to feel they arent being threatened.

So the key is finding those plants that can tollerate the most everyday stresses without the survival response kicking in.

All hermies should be discarded to try and eliminate the low stress tollerance trait as it carries over and offspring and genetically even less stress tollerant thus going hermie even easier.

 

:-peace

 

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a topic near to my heart, have some amazing genetics locked up inside beans made by a fem plant sprouting more nuts than a thai brothel.

they behave well(really well) until about week 10, by week 11 its a sausage fest.

also worth mentioning, the above scenario is almost guaranteed to result in hermies due to the fem seed production process using stress to induce male parts with female chromosomes ,cuts breeding potential down substantially and introduces a dominant stress response "trait" or as totemic put it somewhat better, genetic hardwiring .

 

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  • 6 months later...

Hi guys 

Sorry to revive an old thread here , but was just scrolling around and reading on some topics of interest .... 

I have been trying to study as much as possible with regards to breeding and the wonderful plant in general , and i hope my 2 cents worth on this topic of hermies would be worth something to someone 

I hope to one day become a successful breeder and am working towards that goal one day at a time 

According to the cannabis breeding bible - the trick to feminized seeds is to first find yourself an XX sex chromosome female of the pheno of which you wish to create feminized seeds of ...

If the specimen reacts with male flowers to regular stress i.e irregular light cycles , heat stress , drought etc this would indicate and XY 

Most individuals as @Totemic was trying to get at are technically what we call "hermie" - an individual with an X and a Y sex chromosome (one male one female) in its genes and can therefore be either sex.

What we want is a female that wont show male flowers under and stress signalling an XX specimen - which once treated with Colloidal Silver will kick out male flowers but due to being an XX the chromosome given by the pollen is an X (female) instead of usually in nature where the Y would come from the father 

This will result in the seed being XX (feminized)

When it comes to having the tendency towards hermaphrodite - this is a trait that as @McB  and @Totemic were explaining becomes a dominant trait - especially when incorrect methods are used for feminizing strains and is very difficult to get rid of once introduced - but like all traits within a specific genotype if you plant enough of them out you will find a pheno without said hermie response and can use that to further your goals 

I wanted to type something else here but seems i got too baked 😂😂😂 and forgot what it was lol 

Anyway apologies for the essay - i hope it makes enough sense for all to follow and that i understood my research correctly 

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I am afraid you are confusing a standard genetics explanation and trying to explain dioeceous hermaphrodism. That gene is carried on the x chromosome and not on the male y chromosome as you suggest. 

Hermaphrodism is a female survival response and can only be expressed on the x. 

All xy plants are male. Always. All xx plants are female. Always. Normal males either drop x pollen or y pollen. Thus the male determines the sex. If you get a female to produce pollen there is no y so it can only be female offspring.

Edited by Totemic
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🙏🙏 thanks for clarifying man and sparking the desire to go and double check my own research - which led to me obtaining a newer edition of the breeders bible 🔥🔥🤣 

I was a little under the wrong impression this whole time - while it is worth noting that though a seed may be genetically inclined to be either male or female - environmental conditions also play a role in sexual expression 

I hope to have more convos like these that push ones knowledge boundaries and in turn cause one to do further research even if its something i thought i had gone through already 🔥🔥🔥🙏

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12 minutes ago, JrMezz said:

 

I was a little under the wrong impression this whole time - while it is worth noting that though a seed may be genetically inclined to be either male or female - environmental conditions also play a role in sexual expression 

 

Can you please share your peer reviewed articles on this subject matter ? 

I'm assuming you read this : https://www.jstor.org/stable/2469863?seq=8#metadata_info_tab_contents

Edited by greenkush
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Hey guys - will give my references in a few let me just screenshot them quick 

I love this - the same book agrees this is one of the most hotly contested topics among breeders and i love it 💚🙏🔥🔥🔥🙌

Edited by JrMezz
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So this comes from the Cannabis Breeders Bible by Greg Green - struggling to find which year this is , but i know i have an older version too on my currently chargerless laptop 🤣🤣🙁

Sorry for the quality as i had to screenshot from a pdf file hope you can all atleast read it 🙏Screenshot_20190528-173127.thumb.png.0887f6aec579b60b0b02e144474af5bc.png 

 

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22 minutes ago, Totemic said:

From the moment the seed is conceived in the flower its sex has been determined. 

Well .... has a predisposition towards said sex .... 

According to this literature atleast 

I love having these types of discussions especially because the genetic profiling of our favourite plant is still in such early days that even discoveries we may make that seem insignificant once discussed and analyzed can help contribute towards our understanding of this miraculous species 

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It's actually quite simple to understand the hermie phenomenon in Cannabis.

Picture the x and the y chromosome as a ruler each, and every mm is a genetic switch that will either be on or off. Hundreds and millions of switches that determine only half of the circuit. For the hermie trait to pop up in a female the the dominant X switch needs to be on. If you find this chuck it cause you ain't flipping that switch off. If the recessive x switch is on it may or may not Express, but will definately express in the offspring at least 25% of the time. 

Now with a male the dominant Y chromosome does not have the switch but the male does carry the recessive x and if the switch is on there 50% of the offspring will carry the gene in an active state.

This is simple genetics and applicable over many more DNA strings than just cannabis. 

Environmental conditions do not make a plant decide what sex it will be. That is genetically impossible. A female will not decide to be male. She will hermie. A male can not be a female, but can also generate female flowers. The only evidence is applicable to offspring. It is the same as you saying you turn into a girl in winter weather or a boy in summer...?

Edited by Totemic
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1 minute ago, JrMezz said:

Well .... has a predisposition towards said sex .... 

According to this literature atleast 

I love having these types of discussions especially because the genetic profiling of our favourite plant is still in such early days that even discoveries we may make that seem insignificant once discussed and analyzed can help contribute towards our understanding of this miraculous species 

Environmental factors will influence gene expression,  you can read up on allele's and their role in gene's / expression. From what I could read from the screen shot, it sounds like a bunch of pseudo-science rubbish based off very big assumptions with very little to no basis in scientific fact. If they however did trial runs and published their findings in a journal I'd love to read it. If they however have some how discovered to trigger a survival trait in their plants to express primarily female chromosomes then its a different story (but I highly doubt they did).

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Just my 5c, drop the strain if you're having trouble with hermies. I had a strain that I worked on over a few seasons to get my perfect buzz mainly because the breeding thing intrigued me. Last batch turned out hermie, tossed all but 10 seeds due to relocation. Tried to fix it. Trust me, chuck the strain and start over.

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10 minutes ago, Totemic said:

It's actually quite simple to understand the hermie phenomenon in Cannabis.

Picture the x and the y chromosome as a ruler each, and every mm is a genetic switch that will either be on or off. Hundreds and millions of switches that determine only half of the circuit. For the hermie trait to pop up in a female the the dominant X switch needs to be on. If you find this chuck it cause you ain't flipping that switch off. If the recessive x switch is on it may or may not Express, but will definately express in the offspring at least 25% of the time. 

Now with a male the dominant Y chromosome does not have the switch but the male does carry the recessive x and if the switch is on there 50% of the offspring will carry the gene in an active state.

Screenshot_20190528-175014.thumb.png.e2c73f8fe2efe5deb6a72b3c189533be.png 

The book refers to your explanation as "monoecious herm" so it exists in the genetics and therefore would end up being a beeatch to breed out 

This is different from an individual that was stressed in pre calyx or during calyx development causing the survival response of herm 

11 minutes ago, greenkush said:

Environmental factors will influence gene expression,  you can read up on allele's and their role in gene's / expression. From what I could read from the screen shot, it sounds like a bunch of pseudo-science rubbish based off very big assumptions with very little to no basis in scientific fact. If they however did trial runs and published their findings in a journal I'd love to read it. If they however have some how discovered to trigger a survival trait in their plants to express primarily female chromosomes then its a different story (but I highly doubt they did).

I am quite aware that many genetic expressions can be influenced by environment - a very common one being colour

Im not saying the book is 10000 percent correct - but who really is if there is limited research to prove many of these things ? The book was written by Greg Green with the help of many breeders and growers like Dutch Passion , Soma seeds , a whole list really - maybe try get hold of the book and see its credentials ? I found alot of useful info in the older edition and am quite excited to get through this one and update / refresh my memory 

Regarding the parties involved in the research achieving predominantly female chromosomes i have no idea

Im not here to step on anyones shoes or upset anyone and create negative vibes - just discussing a matter of interest with people who are as passionate as i am where i could learn from others experiences 

@Trailblazer420  i agree with you here - if its in its genes you are going to have a tough time finding the one that wont herm - im saying its not impossible 

I have just experienced a strain given to me by a friend that had very favourable traits but got pollen from another strain known to herm and i have now removed the 5th attempt - all herm 

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On 10/24/2018 at 9:04 PM, Trailblazer420 said:

3 outdoor plants, 9 indoor plants, all indoor plants seems to be seeding, outdoor, not a single seed. Could it be that this strain simply should not be grown indoors? Could there be hope for my strain yet 🙂



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I think this is what the book is referring to as environmentally influenced herm 🤷🏻‍♂️ 

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